BR: And we are so excited to be back, this is a podcast where we spend all of our time and effort in Troy to help cmos and marketing director directors,
BR: uh, learn kind of the inside, uh, tricks and tips, uh, as to how to handle your agency, how to actually execute your own marketing programs. Uh, and again, we take it from both sides of that aisle. Um, I’m, I’m myself, uh, Bill Rice, I’m the founder of Kaleido. We’re a digital agency, so you get the agency insider perspective. And, uh, with me as always, I also have Mike Carol, who is the head of growth at nutshell. So he’s kind of the client side. How are things I’m doing well, I’m doing well. It’s a baking hot in Michigan, so we get to, uh, enjoy everybody else’s 90 degrees, summers and hot and sticky. You love the heat though? I do. Actually. I grew up in Kentucky, so this is just like a summer for me. My Irish constitution can’t take anything over 600 degrees and ratings.
BR: Uh, it’s not even gray skies. So it’s that it doesn’t even feel like I’m in Michigan. So, um, we have with us again, uh, and this is a distinct pleasure in this. This was going to be a great, great topic. Uh, is Trisha winner. Um, and she is a former SAS CMO, uh, now specializing in creating content for companies. B2B in particular, uh, does a lot of cool things around account based marketing and again, content creation for those B2B, uh, strategies. And she’s gonna walk us through today, um, why marketing leaders need to audit their contents. So, uh, welcome back. Trisha. We’re excited about this topic.
TW: Okay, thank you. I’m glad to be here. And auditing is, is not a topic that sounds very exciting to most people, so I’m glad you guys can get excited about it.
BR: We do cause it’s like, I mean we get to d, I mean, first of all just content marketing and creation. It’s probably one of the, I don’t know for me, you guys are going to weigh in, but for me it’s actually one of the more fun things that I do in digital marketing because you get into SEO and strategy and understanding how to communicate with your audience or whatever. But the auditing part, actually, unlike most auditing exercise, let’s just sort of dig into that and make sure you’re doing it right and, and all kinds of ideas pop out of that when you really start to objectively look at the content that you have produced, uh, in particular and that you’ve kind of should be producing, right? So that’s why I like, I like auditing. Maybe it’s not the, maybe we should kind of, you know, Enlive in that word a little bit or use a different one. But it is kind of a cool process.
TW: We, we should call it content investigation, content investigation, right? Because that’s, that’s what it is. It’s, it’s more of like a detective work to really see, um, you know, what’s at the heart of, of how your content engine is performing. And if people were to think of it more that way versus, Oh, it’s a chore, Like Auditing Sounds so boring, but investigation is interesting. What am I going to find? You know, that’s, I think that’s a better way to think about it. And maybe we can just rebrand it right here.
BR: I think you’re onto something because you know, accounting is really boring and they kinda like, uh, enliven that with forensics accounting, right? So same, same concept. So I think you’re onto something for sure. Yeah, let’s dig in here. So, um, so let’s Kinda kick off, I know Trisha, you’ve written a blog post about this. I’m on your site and people should, um, should definitely check out a Trisha site. There’s all kinds of interesting stuff on focused b2b.com. Um, so I’m going to let you kinda open up and, and set the, um, set the groundwork for this particular topic since you’ve already kind of investigated it. Um, and by writing something here in particular, but when you’re thinking about this or, or maybe you’re a marketing director or a COO and someone’s either come to you and said, hey, we need to take a look at what we’re doing with content or maybe you’re trying to pitch into CMR that this is something that we need to invest some time and resources into. Um, Kenny, how do you set up that conversation? Let’s just sort of start there.
TW: Yeah. Auditing is something that I wish more people would embrace and come to me on. Um, you know, fundamentally when I start engaging with somebody, I end up doing a certain amount of, of content investigation with them. Um, but a, a big problem is a lot of people think they’re already doing it and I will admit, I’ll raise my hand. I made them this mistake when I was a CMO as well. You get so busy that you think, okay, as long as I’m paying attention to like the big white paper that we’re spending a lot of money in it and I’m going to copy it at that personally and I’m going to make sure that we’re doing a really good job. You know, you kind of feel like you check the box. But what I tell people is you actually, you know, it’s lower on the priority list to worry about your big assets because you can’t, people will never get to those big assets in less your, your little bits and pieces of content that drive the flow from organic or paid traffic into your site, to your landing pages. Um, you know, before they even get to that big piece of content. So the biggest conversation I have to have with people is let’s switch your thinking a little bit. It’s not so much what’s wrong with my big assets or what’s wrong with my website content. You actually have to look at those little pieces that most leaders probably are not looking at because they think, oh, that’s simple. My team has it handled. But you will find tons of errors there. And so for me it’s about refocusing people.
BR: Yeah. And I’ll, I’ll tell you just to Kinda Kinda, uh, ride on those coattails a little bit of the importance. Um, our biggest wins in probably the last six months, and this is just kind of taking it from an SEO perspective, um, have actually been going through this process of auditing a new clients and even some existing clients, um, content that already exists, um, and looking for opportunities to really write and optimize that. And we’ve increased traffic significantly. Uh, we’ve increased keyword acquisition in a lot of cases, conversion on old content. Um, and so there’s a lot to B to B one by going through this process. So to kind of, um, leap forward, I think we’d have a little bit of an understanding, but when you say audit content, like what, what are you talking about there? What are, what are the actual elements or are content items that we should be looking at? Okay. Can you,
TW: Yeah. Landing pages is the most important for me because you can find the most things wrong and they’re the easiest to fix and bring the bay biggest bang for your, your efforts there as far as converting.
BR: Okay. So Trisha, you just recently wrote a blog post specifically about this topic. Um, and of course this is what you do day in and day out. Um, and so I’d just love for you, well first and foremost, people should definitely check out that blog post on focus b2b.com and all the other, um, sort of guidance that Tricia gives around B2B content creation. But maybe just set us a little bit of a landscape, um, for why people should be focused on this. And if you’re a COO and someone’s talking to you about it or maybe your marketing director trying to pitch this to your CMO, um, why should people be dedicating time and resources, uh, to this exercise of auditing their content?
TW: sure. Uh, you know, it’s something that I think a lot of people think they do as marketing leaders, um, but perhaps they’re not focused in the right area. So I know when I was a CMO, I made time for those big white papers and content assets, either, you know, writing them myself or copy [inaudible] editing them and just making sure that they were quality pieces. But what I missed the boat on because I always in my head felt like it was too much time, um, was really all of the smaller content pieces that, that lead up to that asset because that big asset that you spent tons of resources and sometimes money on, um, no one’s going to ever read it. If the assets that lead up to it in their, their flow, um, aren’t quality, right. And, and don’t really pull out the, the right value points and give people clear CTA [inaudible] and reasons why they should fill out forms and all of that stuff, um, is so important.
TW: Um, [inaudible] and so when I’m talking with companies, that’s, that’s where usually their, their head is a little bit in the wrong place with auditing. Um, and then I tell them, hey, yeah, assets are really important and we’ll get there. But first, let’s look at what you’re doing to promote the assets that you have today. You know, your emails, your landing pages, your social posts, those things I put as a higher priority to audit, um, both cause you’ll be able to find things wrong with them, but you’ll be able to fix them easily too and really get good pay off for it.
BR: Yeah, no, I think that’s so important. Just I just know for, for us in the last several months, um, this has been a focus of ours and just from an SEO perspective, we’ve had some of our largest wins, uh, by going through this exercise, uh, looking at both new clients and old clients, past content, uh, and, and finding opportunities to rewrite and to optimize those. And the benefits have been increased traffic with existing content, right? So there’s definitely some value there. Um, new keyword acquisition, uh, as well as just getting more conversion out of the existing traffic and the actual content that we’ve already got. So, um, can’t emphasize how important and how much value is kind of locked up in that content that you created in the past. But to that point, or we’re talking about auditing this, like specifically what pieces of content, what are we actually talking about looking at here? I’m in a very specific way.
TW: Yeah. My number one is though was landing pages and that can be both organic as well as uh, you know, for paid campaigns. But fundamentally if that page that people get to, first of all, if it’s not optimized to get them there, that’s a problem too. But it doesn’t help them see the value in taking an action. Then you’re, you’re missing, you know, all of that great potential, you know, audience, right. That if they get there but then they’re not willing to take the next step, um, you’re just, you’re just basically cutting off your foot there if you’re messing up on landing pages. So that’s absolutely my number, my number one
MC: quite Trish, I got a question for you actually. So when I was reading your blog post, the one thing I noticed it was like missing from the key content pieces that you choose to highlight, you know, for, for investigation. Um, you know, the one that was like sort of normally absent and I just wanted to talk a little about it or blog posts. So my question I suppose is like, do you consider a blog post slash like SEO audits separate from a content audit? And if so, which I imagine you do, why?
TW: Yes, I do. So, um, I really see SEO as a very, very important but separate specialty. Um, so a problem that people mistake, you know, even when they engage with me and I tell them like, Hey, I can do basic SEO, but if you really want to do SEO optimization, that’s something that they long term, you know, continuous project that you have to monitor and you have to continue to make changes based on what people are searching. And that’s not like a point in time thing. So what I’m looking at is a point in time, no, you can do a point in time SEO audit to kick off a longterm SEO engagement and really to make improvements there. Sure. But what I’m talking about in my blog post is more like quick wins, you know, ways, ways to audit to find things that are happening that are maybe process people problems.
TW: Um, you know, versus versus really optimizing the content from there. But you know, it’s, it’s a good point. It’s probably a whole nother blog post to really talk about SEO and what that means. And there’s no question that there’s value to optimizing. Do you have on a blog post, um, a next step, right? Cause yeah, people go to your blog post, um, cause they got there from SEO hopefully. Right. And, and then they read it, then what do they do? Are you giving them a next step? But you know, that’s not something I focused too heavily on, but obviously a worthwhile topic.
MC: Yeah. No, absolutely. And then the other thing I found interesting about the block was when I was reading it, which I really like is, is you make a really clear distinction. I think it’s an important one between, like you said, like an NSCO like optimization or a search optimization engagement is a forever thing. Like it just has to be happening all the time. The algorithms changing, the marketplace changes, content gets published every day. Like it’s just something that it’s really more of a, I don’t know how to describe that, but it’s ongoing. It’s, it’s ever, um, it’s omnipresent. Um, whereas this seems to be more of like a, like a cadence scenario and more linked and not to like be term heavy or like, but to demand Gen specifically where you’re spending dollars and that’s why this is almost more important from that perspective, which is like you’re actively spending money for the most part, you know, whether you’re actually creating content or actually driving paid traffic. And if you’re not paying attention to the assets, the landing pages, even the advertisements and you know, social posts that are pushing these particular assets, then you can really get yourself into trouble very quickly. Is that, is that a good summation?
TW: Yeah. And the reason that I focus here, and to your point, Bill, the question, the first question you asked is about these conversations and how you, how you’ve, you know, gear this up with people. Is everybody’s looking for quick wins. Um, SEO is a longterm win if you know you’re not gonna find a lot of short term value relative to the, the effort you put into it. That, that said, it’s totally valuable to spend time there and resources there. But when I work with people and they’re like, okay, my content engine is just not performing like it should. Yes. Here’s where you look and it’s, it’s not rocket science. People can do this without help, but if they don’t have the time and they want an expert, then they can come to people like me or to you guys to dive in and really get them some quick wins and show them how they can make improvements.
BR: Yeah, totally. One thing before we kind of leave the blog post versus the landing page topic, I will give you one suggestion to look for a quick win in here. Um, and I know Mike’s talked about this before and we see it all the time with clients and I’m sure you do Tricia. There’s a good possibility when you look at your Google analytics, there’s, there’s two or three pieces of content or blog posts specifically that are getting a lot of traffic. Um, and probably the majority of the total that’s coming to your website. Um, if, and this is an important, if, um, if that, that traffic and that content is aligned with potentially a conversion or something that would generate a lead of one of our highest is it relates to AP style, which does it, it is not something we focus on. Um, but uh, so that would be an example of something not to use this strategy with.
BR: But if it is aligned, there’s a good opportunity in a lot of cases to take two or three blog posts and say, hey, at this point, during this audit, I see the potential for lead generation and immediately generation if I actually take this and turn it into a landing page or use some of those elements that are normally associated with the landing page and start to insert that and sort of take over that blog post. Um, that can be a kind of an easy, quick win strategy. Um, and we’ve been able to turn a lot of leads that are something that was a blog post, not necessarily optimized for lead generation. Turn it into a landing page. You have to be kind of, you know, skilled at doing that, turn it into a landing page and then make a, um, make that a lead generation source. Um, so let’s jump from that. No, go ahead. Yeah. Comments and reactions to that?
TW: Yeah, just, just one comment on that relative to data. Um, because I, I think I completely agree with what you said Bell, but, um, data with content can be misleading if you’re not auditing. So here’s why. So you might have as a, as a marketing leader, a content leader, you might be, um, running a monthly report on how your assets are doing, how many downloads have we gotten of each asset? And you, you make your list and then you look at it, oh, you know, white paper a is doing much better than white paper be. We should write more of white paper a topic. The problem with that is why is it doing better? Is it because of it of the topic or is it because white paper B had a really crappy landing page and people were confused and they just didn’t click through. Yeah. So you can’t trust your data and really understand what it means relative to content until you know and are secure that all those, you know, smaller bits and pieces of content are performing the way they should.
MC: I think that’s a super important point just when it comes to data in general, like I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole, but for those that are into data and like, or even if you’re just dipping your toe into like that particular water, it’s just always remember whenever you’re analyzing anything that correlation is not necessarily causation. Like it’s just not. Yeah. That as soon as you notice there’s a on of characteristics
BR: and kind of benchmarks, you’ve got to level set before all that data can be useful. But
MC: yeah, I think that’s a super smart no Tricia. Cause sometimes I know for the three of us, like we tend to having a clean and sort of focused understanding of like the data and all that kind of stuff tend to jump right into that type of information to make decisions. But yeah, if you’re not confident that all of those pieces of content, all those landing pages or are at least arranged and, and designed and functioning the way they’re supposed to, then it’s silly to even look at the data. Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah.
BR: No, no that’s, those are all huge and important points. And I want to jump in cause I know everybody’s eager to understand like, oh how do we go about doing this? But there are a couple additional content pieces that I do want you to highlight, Trisha and give us a little insight as to why you focus on these. Um, particularly emails I think is one that we, we all often forget about. But you talk about emails, social posts, and then of course assets, which you’ve kind of hit on a little bit. Can you kind of take us through just a little more depth on why you pick those out and maybe in particular why you would focus on those those areas?
TW: Yeah. You know, really you think about your, your chain, um, that the, your flow, the way that people are getting to your, your big assets and um, you know, so you may have some different pieces and parts, but the biggest ones are typically people are sending emails out. Um, you know, either to paid lists or to their, um, you know, distribution lists of customers of prospects that they have within their marketing automation or email marketing system. Then you’ve got of course, the organic social posts sometimes paid to, um, you know, and, and I’ll group into that paid advertisements where you’re doing the little blip. It could be on PBC, it could be on Linkedin, it could be on Facebook, um, but you’re doing some kind of short and sweet blip to try and get people’s attention and have them click through to, again, your landing page. Um, you know, I think those are all really important to think about. Um, you know, as you’re getting to that landing page and then eventually you go into the assets themselves and do I have the right topics that are hitting the target audience and all of that, but you really have to make sure that that trail to the asset is clean and healthy first, and then you can dive into, um, evaluating your, your key assets.
BR: Yeah. And I think, um, you know, to the, to the email one, this is when we run into all the time, I think because it’s, it’s not kinda like, you know, on the website or sort of publicly available like social media, um, social post and your website posts or whatever. I think sometimes it gets sort of tucked away and it becomes a manufacturing process. And then when you, you know, when leadership or you know, when the marketing executives kind of dig in and watch what’s going on there and take a look, sometimes you can be, I mean, we’ve run into some clients, we’ve popped open their campaigns
BR: and we’re like, Whoa, what is going on in here? You know, so, um, don’t, don’t forget about these little hidden, uh, campaigns that are maybe a little less visible, but, um, are hugely like right in the clock’s face, right. In their inbox.
TW: Yeah. And I like your, I like your analogy of a manufacturing process, right? And I laughed because we call it a content marketing engine for a reason. It’s because you start to set these quantity goals and then all these different players have their part in it, but they don’t necessarily, um, connect the dots. Well, particularly since you have like too many different authors, um, you, you’ve got the person who writes the, the white paper and then you have a different person in a different department who writes the landing page. And then that goes to a different person to write social posts. And then that goes to a different person to write the emails. And what you find is this, it’s very disparate. All the, all the goodness that that author in that asset might’ve had in mind to, to engage the target audience and the value they would get from it.
TW: Just get lost along the way. And then of course you have the pressure of that manufacturing process. Like think about, you know I love Lucy in the famous chocolate factory. Right? And and all of a sudden so much chocolate keeps coming out of the machine that she can’t keep up and she starts doing stupid stupid stuff. Same thing happens in your marketing department, right? We’ve got to get this white paper out. You know we were supposed to have it done last week and the papers done. We just have to quickly write a landing page and you know the demand Gen marketer who’s supposed to do it doesn’t have the time. And he just says to the graphic artist who’s creating the landing page to just copy and paste the intro and we’ll be fine cause cause they just are worried more about the deadline than about how important that page actually is. And that’s the stuff I see. It’s not, it’s not unfixable. You just have to break down the manufacturing process to find out where the errors are happening.
MC: I think you bring up like the two like super important things, which is maybe an f Trisha, this will make you laugh for sure because we’ve worked together in the past and you as well br but, but when people talk about like deadlines for things, my question always is like why? Like unless there’s an event, if there’s an event happening, like there’s a conference that you’re putting an asset together and then you’re promoting that at the conference and like, okay, we are on a finite timeline. We need to make sure that things are done by that time and so on and so forth and like, that’s okay. But in any other scenario, that deadline is fundamentally arbitrary. So like if the thing is not ready to go yet, then it’s not ready to go. It doesn’t mean that you’re as a marketing leader by the way, that you don’t need to focus your team.
MC: And, and like I think that comes from a leadership perspective as when when marketing leaders, marketing directors or Cmos or whatever, start jamming all this stuff down the pipeline and don’t do a good job of like resource management or understanding like the thing that they’re asking them to do. And this is something that bill and I always sort of complained about and what we loved about you Trish and we work with you cause you weren’t this type of marketing leader is that so often as a CMO or a marketing director and it makes sense by the way, but you get so far removed from the actual production or create creation process. Like you forget how long something takes to do and then and to do well and as a result of that you put these arbitrary deadlines in place and then you force your team to scramble for no reason.
MC: And then you get what Trisha’s describing, right? Which is like the sprint of like half assed thing that comes out the other side with a lame landing page and like totally wrote social posts and there, you know, and nothing makes sense or it’s not connected together. And I just want to call that out because I think it’s really important to, as, as my boss at nutshell says all the time, focus on your focus. Um, which drives me nuts, that phrase, but he’s fucking mentally correct because like, he just got to trim down what you’re doing so that you’re actually focused on producing something the right way the first time. Um, I think it’s like a super important note for everybody that listens to this podcast. It’s like it’s, there’s no burning fire.
TW: Well, well, I agree with that. Um, in, in part I will say that marketers and marketing leaders in particular are under more pressure than ever, uh, to share the revenue objective with sales. And so they’re just working backward. Okay. I have to, I have to put so many opportunities into the pipeline that drives so much revenue. And in, in order to get that opportunity, I have to have this many, you know, marketing qualified accounts or leads. And, and in order to do that, I need to have this many visits to the website this month that, that lead, you know, this many downloads of our white papers. And it’s like they’ve done the data and they break it down. And so they force those numbers. But you know, to your point, Mike, it’s gotta be about quality because if you have something that really speaks to your target audience and brings them value and you make sure that all the pieces and parts that lead them, there are quality, you’re going to get the most out of that.
TW: And you’ll see an increase, you know, in, in the downloads and eventually, you know, down the pipeline revenue from that content if you do it right. And so it is, if the flip my funnel concept and thinking about quality versus quantity, I know you still got the pressure on revenue marketers. I feel Ya. I’ve been there. Um, but you got to make sure that you’re getting the most out of what you’re doing versus doing it to try and you give play the volume game. Sure. And to your point, by the way, like on our current topic, that’s why the audit becomes important, right. Cause as opposed to reinventing the wheel, which is going to take it, it’s hard more time to create a brand new asset, a brand new landing page, all that kind of stuff to return to the things that are working and make them work better. You can get exponential gains for minimal amounts of effort.
BR: Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s a super critical too for people to understand because there’s a lot of, if you can of, um, and I think this is where some of the confusion on this topic, uh, happens. If you’re going to just go around the Internet and, and you, you know, watch youtube and, and do some searches, there’s a lot of, I hesitate to call them strategies, but there’s a lot of material out there, um, that is really kind of tossed out there with a high quantity, low quality mentality because a lot of these folks that are producing this kind of content do not work in highly competitive markets. So even if they truly are having success, the type of markets that we’re operating in, and most of the people that are listening to our podcast are highly competitive markets. And so this extra bit of, of [inaudible] effort that goes into the quality, the strategy, the understanding of how you do these things, um, is super critical.
BR: You can’t just churn out articles and have any sort of a marked success. You have to actually have these iterative processes where you’re truly testing and building some quantity and having some connectivity between these different, uh, platforms and channels. Um, because that consistency becomes critical. Um, when you’re competing, whether it’s on, you know, in the Google market now, adwords and SEO and that sort of thing, or just simply in the marketplace, you’re just not going to stand out. If you just start slinging, you know, 500 word blog post out there and call that a content marketing strategy. So Super, oh, it’s super cool. I mean, we, we get that all the time where people are like, hey, you know, can, can, can’t you write me like, you know, a bunch of $50 articles and that’s just that, that, you know, that might work for an inner internet marketer selling info products, but that’s not the way this market’s made. So, uh,
MC: I can do that. Yeah. But I don’t want to steal.
BR: Okay. So now let’s get super tactical. Um, let’s talk about how you actually do this and maybe kind of take it a content piece by content piece. Um, so, well, let’s start with landing pages. Like what are we actually going to be doing and what are we going to be looking for, um, to, to sort of gauge this process. So again, trust you, you wanna kind of lead us here.
TW: Sure. Um, you know, people have lots of different scopes as far as the number of landing pages they have. My recommendation would be 10 to 20%. If you really only have a few, um, you know, Ma, make sure you’re taking a look at, um, a decent number. But for me a decent number would be around 10. Um, you know, so if you, if you have Andre on landing pages, 10 is still going to give you a good feel. If you have 40, well you still probably we need to look at eight to 10 of them. Um, you know, and you want to make sure that they’re from different types of assets. If you have lots of different people in your department, you want to make sure that they were authored by different people. Cause looking at stuff from the same person at you know, isn’t going to help you over time.
TW: Um, as far as finding problems in your content engine, um, and when you’re looking at these, just a few key things you need to look at for a landing page. You need to make sure that that first sentence is golden as far as hooking the reader. Like, you know, they’re, they’re looking at this cause they have a pain then they need to solve. They’re not worried about whether your product solves it yet, right? You know, but can you hook them with something that, that’s relative to the pain that they currently have? And then give them at least three to five. Think of these as bullet points, right? Clear reasons that the reader’s going to get value from the asset. If you can’t come up with at least three value points as to why the target audience should read this, then you got to go back and rethink your asset.
TW: Cause maybe you, maybe you’re not thinking about the value that you’re providing. And again, this is, this is a giving stage, right? We’re giving value to these folks to begin to engage them in our early stages of the marketing process, even in the late stages. And you know, until they are an opportunity, you’re still giving to them. Um, then of course, you’ve got to make sure you’ve got a strong CTA, working correct links. The form is good. Um, you know, I’m sure you guys can give some tidbits as far as best practices with forms. Um, but those are the typical things. Again, you’re looking for that cut and paste crap from the intro or you know, someone who, who really didn’t take time to make it an easy to read. Um, you know, landing page. It’s gotta be simple. It’s gotta be poignant. Um, that’s, that’s the big stuff. The,
BR: the, the one other thing that I would add to this, cause we’ve run into this, we even personally ran into this with Kaleidico, but we’ve run into with a lot of clients, especially our emerging tech and startup clients, um, is also in that population. Look for obsolescence, right? As your business changes or in the case of startups, they actually pivot or, or are actually trying to get traction maybe in a new market and try to fit their products somewhere else or different. Um, look for things that you don’t want to do or obsolete, um, or you’re shifting away from, I’ll give you some kind of hard examples here. For instance, we used to do kind of the classic SEO, pure SEO engagement. We don’t do that anymore, right? And so we had some landing pages that bring pretty well, uh, for that, but now, you know, we don’t do anything.
BR: Um, so we only do, oh, SEO in association with content, right? So we had to kind of reshape those. Uh, we had a recent client, um, they had a, their business started in one direction and actually doing some inspections. Um, I will give you a kind of the details of that, but it was, it was an actual kind of physical service that they were giving. And out of that emerged a piece of software, um, and sound. So now they’re actually, um, trying to, uh, pivot and sell the data and the software, um, that was associated with the previous service. And so that’s a pretty sizable shift. But when we went in there and started looking at them, you know, their whole website, um, was bringing in and attracting and confusing the heck out of their new audience because it was still talking about that old stuff. So definitely look for, um, in that population if there’s stuff that is just the wrong stuff, right?
TW: Oh yeah. It’s a great opportunity for cleanup.
MC: Yeah. I’ve got a question for both of you guys. So when Trisha was talking about like, okay, let’s say you’ve got a hundred landing pages, you want to look at your top 10 and this, I just want to put the question to the group. Like if you have a hundred landing pages, like is that just too many in general? Like we’ll reach out, what are we talking about? Even even at a like even at a huge enterprise level, it’s call it salesforce, call it, you know, any, any type of like huge B2B company that’s working, like who’s going to ever download, I mean, I guess the opportunity is like, oh, maybe one of those 100 things is going to be interesting to some person. At some time, but like do you guys think that’s just too much? Should you from a demand Gen perspective, like really focused on, you know, your top three value props and like you’re really talking to only 10 landing pages should be active at any one time and then you start to swap them out, you know, oh these two aren’t performing well, let’s try these two. And then and like it doesn’t make sense to make this whole process more manageable by trimming down what you’re promoting and what you’re focused on doing.
TW: It could be no, by the way, the answer could be totally. Yeah. I think focus is absolutely good for anybody. I will say that there are companies who justifiably have reasons for a hundred landing pages. That’s typically one with lots of products are right and lots of different target audiences. So it’s almost like a bunch of little companies that are all working together under one umbrella. Uh, you know, cause I do work with a lot of larger enterprise companies and, and so there are cases where that makes sense, but there’s no question, you know, I’ll combine what you said with what bill just said. As content marketers, we often have a, we don’t have good processes for end of lifeing content. Oh sure. And, and so, you know, that’s, that’s part of it, right? Is do I really need this out there? Do I need a resource library that’s so cluttered that people can’t find anything in it? Um, you know, that’s, that’s absolutely a good point. And it’s probably a whole nother podcast we can do. Like how do you end of life, um, content, but it’s, it is an important thing that people need to be thinking about.
MC: Okay. I got it. I had one other question for both of you guys. When we’re talking about landing pages and in particularly, firstly, when you talk about like a hook in the first sentence and then like if from a copywriting perspective, cause this is a lot of copywriting exercise, would you agree with that? Yeah. So what level of quote unquote personalization, there are two different kinds of personalization. I think there’s the one that, I have my own opinion on this, but there’s the personalization that uses technology to attempt to speak specifically to a target based on whatever whatever business related information or data you can grab using something like clearbit or something like that. That’s personalization a and the personalization B is like putting more of the copywriter themselves personally into that communication. How do you guys feel about that? And like even in an enterprise scenario interest, I know you deal with a lot of larger enterprises, do you think that, you know, they’re required to be more formal with their communication or do you think the way that marketing is going, like when you’re talking about writing these, this copy and these hook sentences that you really should focus on, like bringing that personality to the table?
TW: Yeah. For, for me, there’s two different ways to go about this. Um, and, and a lot of it depends on, to your point, who does what right. Does, does the author that wrote the asset also write the landing page? Sometimes that works, sometimes that’s not reasonable. Um, so the thing that I always recommend people to do is when you’re, before you even write an asset,
TW: you need to, you need to figure out a couple things. One, who’s your target audience? Next, what are the key points of interest that we’re going to write about for this target audience? Right? This is should be a bulleted list. It could almost be like, hey, you were, you were thinking about all the different titles for this asset, you know, based on the different value points and here’s what they are, here’s the key. Aha, here’s the key. You know, things they’re going to get out of it. That’s really important to them and you know, then also summarizing what the value is to the audience. And the last one I always recommend is of course to think about the stage, um, that the asset is relative to, um, is this awareness through to, you know, helping them to close the business in the sales cycle. But more to the earlier points, right? If you, if you write those bullets of the key value points, the key points of interest for your audience.
TW: One can verify
TW: that this is a worthwhile asset frame, but to those bullet points can then pass on to your author of the landing page so that they can understand what those key hooks are and how to write them. You know, you can also include like here’s the top statistics or the top findings or the top quotes from this asset after you’ve written it. That type of stuff will go so far in helping the social media specialist to write their social posts and the, uh, demand gen marketer to write this email so that as closely tied that to the asset as possible. Because let’s face it, most of these people do not have time nor probably the aptitude to read some of the, uh, white papers that some of these technical complex, you know, product companies, right? Um, so they need it boiled to the surface and in these hooks, these key engagement points.
TW: And if you do that, a lot of this, a lot of these problems go away. They just resolved too. It depends a little bit on kind of who, who, or what is the hook. Um, that gives the content credibility. And I’ll just get to it, at least in my mind. The way I’m thinking of the question you asked, there’s a couple of different scenarios. In some cases the hook to the audience is, Hey, I want to know what salesforce thinks about this, or I want to know what Mark Caddo thinks about this particular topic because they’re kind of leaders as an organization in this space. Read some other things. And I think, I think this happens a lot in sort of enterprise software is I want to know, uh, what they, you know, they think about this, but then there may be other situations where potentially an organization actually has a personality, um, that, that people thought leaders, that is kind of the, um, the cliche word for this.
BR: But, um, they have somebody that people are actually following them and they’re curious about what they’re saying. And so, um, so that personality probably should end up in the landing page and of course in the content, but from the enterprise stand up, um, it’s probably actually somebody within that organization that’s actually, uh, making sure there’s some brand consistency or product consistency. And actually they’re, uh, delivering those bullet points, those, those key hooks to the writer or to the expert within the organization, uh, to kind of get that content back out. So I think that’s another way you can kind of look at, um, who’s kind of driving the personality in that it based on who’s going to have the most sort of credible hook. And I’m, I’m kinda thinking about, um, the guy that you follow that does the, I don’t know why I’m blanking on it, but the chat, um,
BR: yeah. Take your heart from Trey. Exactly. So that’s a perfect example. Right? Drift has a lot of credibility, but kind of his personality is almost celebrity and there’s a good chance that people following him as a personality. So if he was writing a landing page or he was writing a piece of content that I might use his personality in the landing page because he might be a bigger hook that actually drifted the organization. So I don’t know if that helps with a little more color to that, that question. But I do think there’s some contextual importance to kind of how you approach that
MC: awesome. Yeah, I was just curious your Judy’s opinion on that, but my general opinion when it comes to that kind of stuff, is it, there’s this conversation out there that when you’re doing B2B that like you’re talking to some like Phantom entity that is the business and you’re not, you’re talking and the three of us know this and everybody knows it’s sort of inherently, sometimes I think they don’t practice it and they always say like beat a high, right? It’s business to individual. I mean it’s still a person that you’re talking to, right? I mean it’s still a human being at the other end. Who’s a regular person. I don’t care if they worked for Microsoft or draft or you know, a tiny mom and pop shop that like is just getting started or a startup. Um, you know, they expect to be, I think the expectation today when it comes to writing this type of content and when you’re auditing it to think about it is to, is, is to engage people on a human to human level.
MC: And I think that Gearhart in particular like exemplifies that to the extreme. Almost like not everybody’s going to be a day to get her heart. Like that’s impossible. I can’t do it. You know, nobody’s going to do that. But like you do not have to be like stodgy and dry. And even when the topics, my brother works for a, I think the name of the company is conversant. They do like it’s an HR software company at churches probably maybe familiar with them, maybe not. But, um, and like he sends me stuff all the time to look at, and I’m not being derogatory towards them, but like they just think that because the topic is so dry and important, which it is critically, we’re talking about like sexual assault in the workplace and harassment and all that kind of stuff. Um, it’s still, you’re still talking to a human on the other end of it and that I think people lose sight of that when they’re building these campaigns out there thinking about the c suite or they’re thinking about a group of decision makers, but you’re not talking to the group all the time. You’re, you’re training a person to talk to a group. Yeah. And I think that’s important.
TW: It’s really, really important. If you don’t know who you’re writing for, then don’t write it. And you know, it’s not just, it’s not just, Oh, I know this title. No. What is that title care about? You know, it’s funny, a lot of times if you look at surveys that say why people buy stuff, like when you’re talking B2B, a lot of times it’s because it will give them a promotion. You know, that it’s not about the value to the business. Yeah. It’s not about the value to the business, it’s about the value to them personally. It’s either gonna solve a lot of their personal headaches, like, oh, I’m wasting so much time on this manual thing. Or you know, this is just making us all in fight right within our department. So it’s either solving something for them or it’s advancing their career. There. There’s very personal reasons why people in businesses by business, um, you know, solutions. And so you have to understand that. Talk to people, you know, who’s who is your buyer and the other influencers and, and call up and talk to them and see
BR: drives. Yeah, that’s true. That’s how to get your car. It’s kind of funny that you said that because I’ve had a couple of conversations this recently, the, the number one and the first question and now, and this hasn’t been always, but now that we always ask our stakeholder or our client is how do you get measured? We want to know that immediately because that drives a lot of our tactics and strategies. How do you, if you’re our stakeholder, you’re the one that got, it’s going to make sure that we, that the invoice gets paid. Um, how are you measured? Um, and that’s super critical. All right, we could, uh, we could definitely spend a lot of time on lady pins. Let’s pop over to emails, which I, I love this topic. I love email. Um, so talk to us about this because I know even us personally, this is something that we do not do, um, and we haven’t done and, and now kind of talking through and reading your blog post and everything. Um, we should, so tell me how we should be doing this for our clients.
TW: Yep. Same. Same with landing pages. You need to take a sample size. And you know, most people send three to five emails, different emails for each asset to promote them. Um, if you’re only sending one, um, I’ll, I’ll raise that as a little bit of a flag there. But, um, you know, so if you’re sending three to five emails, you could grab about three different assets, you know, from different campaigns and look at the emails and you can probably get a pretty good taste for that. Um, but similar to the landing pages, you’re looking for those hooks both in the subject line as well as the first sentence. I usually say, um, you know, that first sentence, if you, if you can have kind of a bold statement with a stat or a key finding, um, or that quote from that celebrity, you know, influencer, um, you’ve got to have at least a clear value prop in the body.
TW: And let me stress, we’re talking less than four sentences here. Um, you should be able to communicate this, a simple, clearer to a call to action. You can have it more than once in an email. That’s okay. Have a subtle link early in the first sentence and then have a, you know, a very clear, bold call to action at the end. And of course everything needs to be working. But the other thing to think about here is you’ve got to have some variation. Remember when I said you’ve got to have those key points of interest in, there should be a set of bullets for that. When you’re thinking about the asset, that’s probably how many emails you, you need to have is um, you know, at least an email per each value point. You can’t cover everything in one email. This is a not, not about selling the entire asset.
TW: This is about selling one single idea per email. And you know, if you keep that focused and then when people go to your landing page, they’ll get a taste of the bigger idea. Wow, I’m not just going to um, you know, get this concept resolved in my mind. I’m also going to get x, Y and z value too, right? Let me fill out that form so you don’t need to sell everything in the email. Another error that I see is people take the landing page and they put it in the email. You don’t, that’s a terrible experience. Right. I just read this. Why am I reading this again? So the email asked to be different than the landing page. And you know, I laugh, but I see it all the time.
BR: Yeah. We just, we just had the exact mentioned that it wasn’t exactly that, that a clear cut, but we, we had a campaign that we were looking at and, and were like, oh, like it’s got a great open rate. We didn’t get any click through on this. Why? And, and to your point of, of density of like, what else do you want them to know? Like you put it all in here, you never drove him to the webpage. Um, so you’re not going to get the conversion that you were looking for, but it’s because you didn’t, you didn’t tease it up. Uh, you didn’t even give him any sort of benefit to going beyond this point. You just sort of, you know, gave him everything or at least, and, and I think this happens more often than, than maybe what I just described was there’s so much information in the email, they just assume that’s all you got.
BR: Um, because it was just so long and so they probably didn’t read it and they didn’t expect that they needed to do a next step. Cause I can just save that email and go check it out later. So, um, so yeah, you gotta keep it current. The other thing too I want to highlight again is that subject line, I can’t tell you the number of times, uh, that we work with clients or are looking at an email or even internally, um, that we’re looking at an email campaign and we haven’t actually done the subject line and, and we’re actually, you know, leave the subject line blank till the end or um, you know, even worse, just leave it out and whoever plugs it into to your marketing automation, it’s up to them to put in the subject line or come up with one a is a, is a huge common mistake. You see these campaign documents that have, you know, 15 different emails, three different segments, um, and then there’s no subject line and you’re like, okay, the person who’s putting in to Marquetto or are they just that technical person’s just gonna like whip up a subject line that you think that’s going to work. That’s like your, that’s, that’s your whole opportunity, right? They’re just flushed or left to them. Uh, so that’s a big one.
TW: Oh, absolutely. And an ab test it, right. You know, if you’ve got a big enough distribution list, um, or if you have, um, differentiation in your distribution list, right? Like maybe a subject line for customers is going to be a different than a subject line for prospects. So, you know, make sure that you’re thinking those things through. I mean, when I’m writing emails for my clients, I’m always writing multiple subject lines, both so that they can test it, but also, you know, so that we can get the right one between us because, you know, you don’t get to the magic subject line until you’ve played around with a bunch of them. So it’s so important. I agree.
MC: I try to make individual people own the emails that they’re sending. So in other words like, cause an email is a personal conversation, it’s just sort of a phone call, right? I mean you are talking, yes you’re talking to a mass audience, but you’re talking to people specifically and I’ve found and might not be scalable I guess for for slightly larger organizations. But what if someone is composing the email? Cause we always want an email to come from an individual, right? Like we know that best practice everybody does, which is simply like, do not send an email from, you know, sales at growth that, you know, or if you do, by the way that’s a generic email address. It’s just still come from a human being. And if they own that whole process and you make them put their name on it, um, then I, I feel like you tend to get better results.
MC: Um, you know, from, from the way they choose to construct a, you know, a subject line and then the, the preview text and, and all that kind of stuff. It’s a hard thing to do in practice. Cause the way that, you know, tertiary, you described the content engine or machine, there’s a lot of different people kind of working in here. But if you can grab somebody and have them like net demand generator, own it from back to front and collaborate with those other people, then you’ll get the personal touch at each point in the process. And as much as hard as it is, and as much as it feels like it won’t scale, I highly encourage anybody, whether they’re marketing team is a hundred or 10 to try to do that, um, you’re just going to get a better result.
TW: Yeah, I agree 100% and that’s one of the things that I’ve learned now that I’m on the other side. Um, you know, as a, as a freelance or contractor for, um, B2B companies is I’ll tell them, you know, they’ll hire me to write a white paper for them. And I’m like, how about I also write the landing page and the emails and the social posts for you because I can do it so much faster and get you better quality doing it all in one go. Yes. You know, versus somebody who I turn in the white paper and then they have to read it or you know, or trying to figure it out and then it goes to the next person in to the next person. That’s something with the Gig economy. You have contractors who can just sit down completely focused and get you high quality in less time because we can,
BR: you can do the whole thing. Totally. Yeah. Let’s jump to a social post in advertisements. This is something that I think, um, again, kind of like email, this is probably something that it’s kind of just, I don’t know, it feels like such a small micro content and kind of the size. Um, and I w again, something that I see, I’m sure you guys see because it is such micro and it’s such, usually it’s life is so fleeting. Um, although it’s personally with advertising dollars associated with this, um, that we devote like that small amount of time, which can be really kinda costly. Right. So, um, how do, how do we attack this attack? This one?
TW: Yeah. I think this one is more of a, this has been an industry problem that we’ve had way back in like 2006 when B2B is, we’re all trying to figure out this social thing and you hired an intern to handle it. I don’t think we’ve gotten much. It’s true, right? We all did it. And, and then I don’t think we’ve gotten much better. There’s, there’s still 20 somethings who are running social media and they don’t necessarily understand your product, particularly as you get, you know, I’m not talking B to c world, but as you get into BB B2B and you get into more complex stuff, your social media manager doesn’t always understand your product and it’s not their fault. It’s because nobody’s focusing on them to train them. Um, you know, or making it a requirement that they have a certain level of skills to get into the door there.
TW: So you got somebody who is taking this asset, they’re basically restating the title in the social posts. And, you know, a title isn’t a miracle. Um, you know, there’s, it doesn’t, it can’t cover all the value points and, and then they’re finding some generic, um, you know, picture to go along with it. A lot of times they don’t even open up the white paper, so they don’t see that there’s some golden chart in there that they could use as, as the picture. That’s a much more interesting one for the asset. And so really this is, this has gotta be either you’ve got the author that’s helping to guide this or you’re pointing that out. Part of, part of the role of the author should be [inaudible] here’s the picture you use for the landing page and here’s a couple pictures. Or here’s some ideas for pictures that would be good in social posts that tie to these particular hooks.
TW: You’ve got to have that person thinking about it and part of the role as being an author of a white paper, if you want that social media manager to actually be able to do a good job. And, and so when you’re auditing, that’s what you got to look for, right? Is there a, is there a fair hook that’s better than the title? Cause you’ve already got the title in the link, right? Um, are there variations among the posts? Is the image compelling and interesting? A clear value statement, working links, you know, you’ve got to take that seriously. And if you do, um, and you, you adjust processes to make it easier on everybody, you will [inaudible] organic traffic and save those per page. We’re, we’re probably kind
BR: of relearning the same bad practices that we learned early in email. Right? So early an email, everything came from info at, um, it was very corporate focused. I think it’d be to be, we kind of are remaking those same mistakes. And um, and, and listening to Mike actually kind of made me think more deeper about this cause we probably actually do this poorly as well. But um, to have an individual kind of own that conversation and, and put their name on it. And even though you may be coming from a corporate Facebook page or from a corporate, uh, our company Linkedin page or whatever, is to truly have an individual who’s thinking about how they’re having a conversation. So how would I post this? Now, most of us kind of know at least to some level how to have a conversation via social media. But when we get on our, our, our company page, um, we take all that personality out of it or we take that personal touch out of it.
BR: Or like you said, we don’t, we don’t actually grab the meat of that chart. It’s actually gonna drive some interests and pull that out because we’re not thinking about having a conversation. We’re just, we’re just randomly posting out, um, you know, a blog post or, or a white paper and that sort of thing. So maybe, maybe we need to, um, relearn, hey, let’s, let’s make this email come from a person. Let’s make this sexual social post called from a person or at least feel like it’s coming from a person and put a little personality into it that uh, that may be, you know, part of the solution. Even advertising same thing. Okay.
MC: Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s critical to like to remember that one of the best tactics I’ve ever seen when it comes to social posts in particular, right? He’s like, um, and the guy that kind of a lot of people do it, but when I first noticed it was Colin Campbell, some sales hacker, whenever he shares a piece of content in linkedin specifically, he’ll like write a post in the, and that is the post itself, right? And there’s no linkage whatsoever. Um, and then the first comment in the post of zone post is going to be like, oh, I forgot the link. Here it is. And I guarantee you people click the out of that. Not to mention they then are talking to a person, he started a conversation amongst his community on linkedin and there’s a comment in there and people like want to reply to the comment.
MC: Even if it’s just like tongue in cheek, like, ah, you should’ve put that Lincoln, whatever it is. Um, it brings that like, shit, I don’t know. I don’t want to be too philosophical about it, but a certain element of human frailty to the idea that marketers are like these perfect beasts that always put out things that are perfect and easy and simple and like that is the, the personalization that I strive for and I’m, and I don’t practice it where like what I preach the way I should. Um, I think that’s a really good point that everybody makes. It’s like you can’t just go to your HootSweet or your buffer app or whatever your hubspot and like just, you know, create a compelling sentence with one single link and then share it out all the time. I mean definitely it has to be a part of your, your automated cadence for sharing, sharing social assets, what you’ve got to like get in there and experiment, uh, in a way that like feels really manual.
MC: And, and again, like really unscalable until you figure out like what your audience gravitates towards and then you can kind of like rinse and repeat and create a, a better process for yourself. But the only way to get at that right is if you have to your point, be, are a single person kind of focused on it, doing it themselves as opposed to to Tricia’s point. Like what ends up happening in a machine where things just kind of like get spit out the other end, which is just not, not a good way to do it.
TW: Yeah. And there are tools nowadays that, that allowed the author to, to write the content for posts, even if they’re not the one who then, you know, puts them out there and schedules them. So there are ways to make this work so that it can feel more real. Um, but another thing that you brought up, Mike, that I think is really important, um, is throughout auditing, make sure that you’re, your brand feel is represented and that includes how you talk to your target audience and, and so that, that’s an important button and you should be choosing a brand feel and the way you talk to your target audience based on what the target audience responds to and engages to. And Mike, you gave some great ways to test that and work through that. Um, but that, that has to be throughout this, you know, that human feel that your target audience is going to respond to.
MC: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I can’t, it’s a hard, it’s the hardest thing to do. It’s just expectations are, so, it’s funny people come into the marketing marketplace, if you will, like today, and I just remember, I mean, the three of us have been around doing digital marketing specifically, like since it’s existed. Um, which makes me sad. But
MC: But that being said, like it just used to be so much different. Like the expectations used to be so much lower, you know, your 500 word blog posts, your single social posts with a link in it. The organic reach was, you know, 80 to 90%. Now it’s like truncated down to 15% and that, you know, I see the Dave Gearhart’s of the world and the, you know, the Steli is and the, you know, just these, the Neil Patel’s and like all these personalities that are coming out. And I feel like, and this is a little bit off topic, but like the wave of the future is like the CMO is going to be, it’s like you guys remember in the 90s when they started hiring Korean directors at companies like didn’t really do anything but they were just celebrities. I feel like marketing will be like that. Like, you’re going to have to hire a famous person to like be your market or otherwise no one’s gonna be paying any attention to, I’d be taking it to an extreme, but I think you guys aren’t talking about if you, and if you don’t do that then like, it’s really easy to get lost in the shuffle.
MC: I mean, from a, I don’t know, our audience and who they’re listening to you, but the sobering thought that I woke up with yesterday at someone like drop it in our slack, there are 377 CRM solutions on the marketplace. 377 how do you, I don’t even know how to approach. I mean, I do, I get paid to do it. Right. But like how do you even approach like cutting through the noise in that thing? It’s not features. It’s not, you know, it’s, it’s just the competition out there. It’s just crazy. It’s just nuts. Yeah.
BR: Nope. It’s [inaudible] through the noise off topic here. But this is a conversation I’ve had for the last couple of clients and we’ve talked to because especially cause video’s becoming so important. Um, new clients, my first quest is like, okay, do you have anybody that’s like, feels like a celebrity or really has like a big personality in your company? I need to find them so we can do some video. You know, and it’s, it’s amazing how many companies don’t have that person. Um, and, and I’ve, I’ve felt this kind of urgency, uh, recently that, that you’re right, like, uh, you know, if your company doesn’t have it, like I’m gonna, I’m gonna be missing some tools, um, to help you if I can’t, you know, I don’t have that person. And even though the people that do have that person, I’m trying to wrangle them in, um, and turn that big personality and to content, uh, can be hard too. But I think you’re right. I think that’s the, I think that’s the cutting edge right now of having a person you can turn into a celebrity if, if they’re not a celebrity. Right. It’s, I don’t know, it feels like a real, a real thing.
MC: It does. And I mean, yeah, they’re [inaudible].
TW: I was just going to say, if you search out there on the job markets and you search the word evangelist, you’re going to see a lot more job posts, um, popping up because people are realizing that they need, and you know, and a very common one is developer evangelist, right? So, you know, they need someone who, uh, can relate to their target audience who is a peer of their target audience, but who also can be content and communications focused. Uh, because you have to have somebody like that who can help you and help marketing break through the noise.
MC: Yeah, agreed. And I don’t mean to like be disheartening to the people that are listening or to myself for that matter. But the key component to getting that person to, to like do all this stuff that we’ve just been talking about is like, they personally have to have the motivation to do it. Um, you can’t, you know, you can’t make someone want to be a public personality. That’s just not how it works. You’ve got to find somebody that like, that loves it and digs it. And that’s my fundamental problem. Right? Like, I am not a huge fan of social media. I love this podcast and doing it and it’s, and it’s great and I’m beating myself over the head because I have to be more proactive and in creating a personal brand that is connected to my company’s brand and all that kind of stuff.
MC: But like if that person, your marketing director, your CFO or whoever your thought of Angeles days isn’t automatically thinking in terms of like, oh, how do I turn this moment, a social moment that I can share, how can I incorporate the discussion of this white paper and like the next Facebook live video I’m doing or whatever the, you know, whatever the thing is. Um, and then it just, it’s not going to work. It cannot be forced. It’s one of those true things need to be like creatively organic and that’s the, that’s the lightning in a bottle that’s just really hard to find and create. It doesn’t mean you can’t be successful with like solid, best practices and doing this stuff that we, the, you know, the Trisha you highlighted today 100%, but if you’re really looking to like break out growth or really get the attention that that you need, you’ve got to get the, at least half of the way there with that. Um, and you can’t treat to your point again like this is not, yes, you could build an engine, but you got to get away from the manufacturing mindset fast and free.
TW: Yeah. Let me, let me,
BR: I’m gonna say background auditing, auditing. Do you do in that too then? This is no good. Mike and I get along. So I’m going to take us off track because I think it’s a fascinating topic and I think a future episode around personality marketing and personal branding cause we’re trying to do this with some clients. Um, and it is an exercise in and of itself and I think it’s something that’s important, um, to be done. Uh, but I think one of the things that you’re probably experiencing, and this’ll be the tease and we’ll talk about this more and we’re running into a lot, is in order for that evangelist or that celebrity to kind of emerge and be able to do that is you have to support them. And one making that their objective is to actually do that kind of work, um, and support them with the infrastructure to actually distribute the content that they’re creating in a good way.
BR: There’s one person that I’m using kind of as an example. He runs a, uh, a high end branding agency and he just disclosed in a recent piece of content. Um, right now he does 100% of his time is devoted to developing content. And that doesn’t mean like cutting the videos. He’s actually producing the content, he’s speaking, he’s doing videos, he’s to producing or apart of the video content. But if you don’t create that support and infrastructure around somebody with that job description, the strategy is not going to work. If you put them on the hook for generating sales, um, and not, uh, generating content, then you’re going to be misaligned. It’s gonna be hard. So that’s the teas for an upcoming episode cause we’re gonna dig into that one. Trisha, get us back, uh, and kind of tires off one on auditing content cause uh, cause it’s important but we got distracted.
TW: That’s okay. Yeah. The one thing I wanted to make sure we squeezed in here was, um, you know, being in the shoes of a, a marketing leader like, you know, uh, I have been, it’s kind of overwhelming to think about auditing. So here’s my advice, how to, how to make this work for you. First of all, if you haven’t audited in a long time, then you may want to bring in some outside help at to, to really do a large point in time audit audit and, and get you to a good place. But when it comes to doing this as a regular part of your job, my recommendation is to um, set aside, um, just one to two hours a week and market in your calendar and choose one piece for each week. So if you think about a month, um, you know, the first week of the month you do landing pages on Fridays from 10 to 12, and then the next week emails the next week, social, the next week your assets and um, you know, or whatever key pieces that you feel like are a part of your content engine that, that need to be looked at in this way. Um, and, and just make that a key time. Now it’s gonna take
TW: time. Like when you find something, you also have to pull that through and fix it, but that will be time. You’ll make time for that. It’s like once you’re aware of a problem, you will find time in your schedule to fix it. Okay. Cause then you, you have clear, definitive way to do it. My challenge to all of you marketing leaders is to book time in your schedule for this regular process and where you need help. Like I said, there’s people like me, there’s, there’s folks like Kalydeco agency that can help you guys do a point in time to really get
BR: reporting. In fact, I would actually encourage, uh, two things. One is it probably should be an objective outside run of this too. You should call Trisha cause we really don’t want to do that. We’ll do it as part of an engagement. But man, that’s, that’s a hard job to do and we probably won’t be as good at it as she is. Um, but I think it is important to what she said and I think you kind of soft selling it, but I think it’s really important to at least once a year or on a regular basis have some outside objective look at that. Um, because it probably will frustrate you, um, to kind of look at this old stuff and, and try to really kind of, um, strategically think about it. Cause it just, it will feel like just kind of going through the junk drawer. Um, but so you need somebody that’s, that’s passionate about doing that and doing a good job.
MC: Yeah. Agreed. I I’m usually, it’s funny cause I, I come from the agency side of things. Um, thank you br for that by the way. Um, but yeah, and now that I’m on the other side, I usually advocate for trying to keep, not necessarily as much in house as you can, but when it comes to content creation specifically, um, you know, be very specific with the, and you know, like the, the contractors you engage and onboard them. Like employees, like we talked about every one of our previous podcasts. But I think you guys are 100% right. Like if you’re going to do an audit of something, you’re so close to it, you’re just not going to see half the mistakes that somebody like Tricia or you would bill. Um, and it’s really enlightening to get a third party perspective, particularly one by the way, which consultants, no matter how you slice it, your internal marketing team only looks at one type of problem for one type of company all day long.
MC: And the, the true advantage, and it’ll always be an advantage for any consultant or agency, is they’re looking at that problem 30 or 40 different ways a month. Like you just can’t beat the exposure. An agency or a consultant gets to like the vast array of different challenges, marketing challenges and problems and different ways to solve them and all that kind of stuff. And so I think it’s super important to [inaudible] to outsource this particular type of activity at least until they can help you build a process for understanding either a, how to build it right the first time, um, or B, put them on a regular cadence where like, yeah, you’re, you’re auditing our content once a month or once a quarter or, and then doing what Trisha also said, which is doing it internally, you know, on the weekly basis. Like always checking in as the always checking in thing that I think is super important. I am not a schedule person as I’m sure both of you know. Um, but like putting yourself.
BR: Great. Well thank you for making the time to do something like this. We’re going to wrap this podcast has been awesome. Um, and I can’t emphasize enough how important to have this, this piece of content marketing and content strategy is just to go through and do that audit and find those wins, uh, and do it on a regular basis. Uh, thanks for being here Tricia. Uh, all of our audience love when you guys, uh, like and give us reviews and feedbacks, um, on all of our different channels. You can get iTunes, Spotify, um, everywhere that you can download podcasts with. Glad that you’re here. Hopefully we’ve given you something to think about cmos and marketing directors in those feedback. Let us know what we can talk about next and we’ll try to deliver that, uh, till then, uh, like us. Give us great reviews and we’ll see you next week.
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